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Sunstone Presentation July 2016: Handshakes & Drawn Swords


Included here is the PDF Transcript of my July 2016 Sunstone Presentation: Handshakes and Drawn Swords.  The audio may be added at a future point.


PDF of the Presentation


10 thoughts on “Sunstone Presentation July 2016: Handshakes & Drawn Swords”

  1. Bill, I sure enjoy the podcast. It is quite educational.

    The theory that polygamy was given by an angel other than an Angel of the Lord Jesus Christ has substantially been displaced by the statement of Bishop Dennison L. Harris. He was one of the 2 young boys that went to the home of William Law and witnessed all the wicked men swear an oath to murder Joseph Smith. He didn’t participate in the oath but they threatened those two boys life’s if they talked. He passed the message on to Joseph Smith and Joseph Smith made a comment back to him about polygamy.

    Here is the Title of his Statement:

    Bishop Dennison L. Harris of Monroe, Sevier Co., as related by him in the presence of Presidents Joseph F. Smith and Franklin Spencer at Ephraim, Sanpete County, Sunday, May 15th, 1881, and reported by G. F. Gibbs.

    Here is the excerpt of his Statement pertinent to the theory:

    “There was one thing that Joseph said which I have not related. He said: they accuse me of polygamy, and of being a false prophet and many other things which I do not now remember; but, said he, I am no false prophet, I am no impostor; I have had no dark revelations, I have had no revelations from the devil. I have made no revelations; I have not got anything up myself. The same God that has thus far dictated and directed me, and inspired me and strengthened me in this work, gave me this revelation and Commandment on Celestial and Plural marriage; and the same God Commanded me to obey it. He said to me that unless I accept it and introduce it and practise it, I together with my people should be damned and cut off from this time henceforth. And they say if I do so and so they will kill me. What shall I do! What shall I do! If I do not practise it I shall be damned with all my people; if I do teach it and practise it and urge it, they say they will kill me, and I know they will. But said he, we have got to observe it, that it was an eternal principle, and that it was given to him by way of Commandment and not by way of instruction.”

    1. i see nothing here that destroys my point. When he says God gave it to him that could mean god himself or at the hands of an angel. Also this statement is late and the church itself states that late info is more vague memory than verified history. And even if Joseph was deceived I would expect him to swear it was a good messenger…. that is what deceived means. you fell for it.

      1. Bill,

        If we are simply comparing theories then the time at which they are offered is irrelevant. He gave his statement in 1880ish in direct rebuttal to your recent claim made. I dont know how you can disregard such a direct statement that polygamy wasnt from the devil.

        Your claim seems highly problematic and unsubstantiated. I may be misinformed but I think this is your theory alone, that polygamy is from the devil.

        Please show me someone with keys that agrees with your theory that polygamy is of the devil so I can rest my salvation on it.

  2. Assumption required for your argument:
    1. Creation literally happened as described in genesis.
    2. Lehi existed

    Using the words off a prophet (Mckonkie) to justify disregarding the words of a prophet doesn’t seem very sound.

    I find it hard to believe that spirits with hundreds of years of practice deceiving people are so stupid they shake hands.

    1. I agree with what you see as the silliness of 129. That said I don’t agree that genesis has to be literal to make my hypothesis valid. nor Lehi for that matter

      1. My daughter is preparing for girls camp. She needs to learn two ways to start a fire. One of the methods she is picking is rubbing sticks together because she saw that in the movie Cast Away. A movie may be inspirational but not sufficient to support the actuality of a real event. If she wants to use the friction generated by running sticks together she will have to learn about Wood types and running techniques from credible sources. Lehi’s dream or the story of the creation might be inspirational, but they are not credible sources for explaining the claims of Joseph.

        On another note, every time I hear the story about the Angel with a sword I think of the story of Balaam. The angle that was sent to kill him was easily thwarted by a donkey.

  3. Ron, President Gordon B. Hinckley clearly stated that he does NOT believe polygamy is doctrinal. If it’s not doctrinal, that is in direct opposition to the words and teachings of Joseph, Brigham, Wilford, etc…. He said this while serving as President and Prophet of the church. He held ALL the keys of the kingdom when he made that statement in his interview with Larry King. And remember, you are supposed to follow the words of the LIVING PROPHET NOT THE DEAD ONES so I guess Bill must be right as his assertions are more in line with the most recent mouthpiece of God.

  4. Do we really believe that a young boy remembered a quote of that length and detail 40 years after the fact (the quote that Ron wrote)?!? Sounds to me like the quotes we were taught in church of Brigham Young transforming into the image of joseph and sounding like Joseph during the succession crisis following Carthage. Only now are we told that those quotes came from men who were not even there but were overseas on missions. Our minds can play a lot of tricks on us 40 years after the fact.

  5. Pingback: POST: The Dominant Narrative Is Not True - Mormon Discussion PodcastMormon Discussion Podcast

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